There is a wonderful Bible teacher who is a preacher at a very large church. He has been pastor there for many years. I have always loved listening to him. I am not going to mention his name because I am going to disagree with him on a very critical point of his teaching.
I wanted to see how he taught Ephesians 5:24, "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." His explanation to this was that it did not mean obey your husband. It meant to have a gentle and quiet spirit. It meant the husband is suppose to be the provider and protector. He is to sacrifice for his wife as Christ sacrificed for the church.
This is all biblical but I don't believe this is what submission means. He clearly was opposed to using the word "obey" in defining submission. I went to the dictionary and it defined submission as "the state of being obedient: the act of accepting the authority or control of someone else." So the dictionary understands the definition of submission but not Bible teachers?
I didn't see that submission meant being gentle, quiet, or expecting the husband to provide, protect and sacrifice in the dictionary. Yes, husbands should do all that but what if they don't. Does that mean the wife doesn't have to be submissive? The problem with this teaching is that wives will decide their husbands aren't loving them as Christ loved the church, therefore, they do not need to submit to their husband. They will continually look to their husband and see how short he is falling in his God-ordained role and be upset with him.
Being submissive is obeying. Period. We submit to our government by obeying it. We submit to our employers by obeying them. We submit to Christ by obeying Him. Older women are told to teach younger women to be "obedient to their own husbands" {Titus 2:5}. Does this mean husbands can physically abuse their wives? Of course not!
I don't understand why pastors are so afraid to teach what true submission looks like or even mention the word "obey" as if it is a dirty word. Has your pastor ever taught that wives are to obey their husbands, not just submit but obey? Even so, I, as an older woman, will continue to teach women to be submissive, yes, even obey their husband in everything.
Logging you in...
Donna McClung · 608 weeks ago
Jacqueline · 608 weeks ago
Anonymous · 608 weeks ago
Allison · 608 weeks ago
shannon · 608 weeks ago
You are spot on with the definition of submission. I really "got" the definition when I read the book "What? Me? Obey Him?" by Elizabeth Rice Hanford. She correlated women obeying their husbands with Christ obeying God. In the Garden of Gethsamene, Christ prayed for the cup to be taken from him but "nevertheless, not my will but thine be done". His job here on Earth was to fulfill God's will for him, to obey God. Yes, Christ was equal to God, but he had to obey. Yes, we are not "less than" our husband anymore than Christ is to God, but we must obey. I read that and my eyes were opened. I don't even think I finished the book because it clicked so much once I understood that correlation. Thanks again Lori! Shannon
Cynthia Swenson · 608 weeks ago
Kelley · 608 weeks ago
We often overlook all those little "thats" is the second chapter of Titus 2, at least I did until I began living Titus 2 so I could teach Titus 2.
Verse 1: Teach sound doctrine
Verse 2: {What would that look or "sound" like?} THAT the aged men...
Verse 3: The aged women LIKEWISE, THAT they BE...
Verse 4: THAT they may teach the young women to BE (a) sober, (b) love their husbands, (c) love their kids,
Verse 5: (d) discreet [If we EVER needed a revival in discretion IT'S TODAY!], (e) chaste, (f) keepers at home, (g) good, (h) obedient to their OWN husbands,
WHY??? THAT THE WORD OF GOD BE NOT BLASPHEMED. Not our pastor's philosophy or interpration of family matters. Not our daddy's reputation. Not even to make our husbands look like the head honcho. "BE this woman," teaches the Titus 2 aged woman, "THAT you won't ever blaspheme the Word of God."
THAT is why you teach what you teach, Lori. WHAT DOES THE W.O.R.D. SAY???
Kelley~
Cynthia · 608 weeks ago
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/5.htm
A friend pointed out an additional point to me, about the word "love". In Greek, the word used is agape, and in ancient Greece it referred to the highest, most spiritual form of love between equals. In pre-Christian Greece, the idea that this highest form of love could exist between husband and wife was not accepted by all, as many thought that it could exist only between men. This type of love is also associated with unconditional, sacrificial love - to truly love another as one loves himself.
So, when Ephesians talks about a man loving his wife in the agape-sense, it's a powerful statement. He's loving her as an equal, in a powerful and unconditional way, just as he loves himself. THAT is the context in which the hypotasso (submission) is taking place.
Sharon · 608 weeks ago
As to whether this is being said from the pulpit? Certainly not at our last church. The last Preacher did not want to preach on sin for fear of making others uncomfortable. We changed churches. It was hard to find one that did preach it here in Brisbane, Australia. Over here it seems to be an issue of hyper-grace and when you mention it to the Preachers they tell you to not "put yourself under the law". Sigh! I have written often of these issues here if you are interested. No pressure. :) http://heleadsmesharon.blogspot.com/
K. Martin · 608 weeks ago
I want to especially thank Cynthia for her eurdite comment and understanding of the subject matter.
K.Martin · 608 weeks ago
Cabinetman · 607 weeks ago
It never ceases to amaze me the women of the church trying every red herring and devious arguement to get out the command to submit. Yet, these same women believe a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church. In other words they are fine with a man dying, being beaten and abused but try every sly thing they can think of to get out of their half of the deal.
Thank you Lori. My wife has the same struggles talking to women on this. God bless you & Ken. Keep up the good work.
Anna · 607 weeks ago
I will repeat it: I am worth SO MUCH MORE than my obedience. I am glad I do not think like you.
Ken · 607 weeks ago
It is true that your worth comes from who God thinks you are in Christ Jesus.. nothing less, and nothing more. We are a Child of God if we have joined into His family by joining Jesus at the cross.
Now that your worth is in Christ, and you are a child of Christ, God asks for your obedience. Your obedience is the only real gift you can give back to him. "We love because He first loved us and gave His Son" and then Jesus says, "If you love me you will keep my commands." John 14:15-31. I John 5 1-2, etc.
God says " Listen! Obedience is better than sacrifice, and submission is better than offering the fat of rams" (I Samuel 15:22).
So in summary... you are correct that a Believer's worth is not defined by our obedience but instead our obedience is defined by who we are in Christ. If we are truly His children we will obey Him and God says our obedience is better than sacrifice. Our obedience is the only gift we have to offer Him. We do not obey just to obey, but we obey out of love, because He first loved us!